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Taurek
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![[*]](./images/wow/default_icon.gif) posted on 12-4-0606 at 01:42 PM |
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Warfare Raiders
I'm going to begin leading 20 man raids regularly now. The raiding day has not been decided, I'm going to make a raid on a random day and see what
days get the best turn out. Once I've done that for a few weeks I'll announce highest turn out and decide the day or two days per week to raid
on.
Right now I don't have access to DKP and I'm not certain if I would really use it anyway, I've got a group together to hash out leadership
decisions and we've come up with some interesting ideas in regards to loot.
Raiding is fun and we'll all have a good time but why not make a little cash while we're at it? This was our logic when we decided to do a group
loot system, those greys greens and trash blues are a pretty penny so why not split them up? We're not going to bank anything, just roll need on all
the drops, the greys will be divided evenly due to group loot mechanics. The only loot that will be disputed are coins and the good blues and epics
that people go to the instance for.
Coins: before the raid pulls begin we will poll to see who has the highest rep, the person with the highest rep will receive all coins, everyone will
pass the roll on coins and the designated person will roll need on coin drops. If the person reaches exalted before expending all looted coins then
the remaining coins will carry over to the next raid where the next coin looter will be decided. The reason we chose this method is that the sooner
people reach exalted the sooner we can begin greed rolling on the coins and selling them on the AH to make some cash. And obviously it won't make
sense to let the lowest rep person go first since we would spend months getting that persons rep up from zero. By choosing the highest rep the lower
rep people can build their rep up by killing. Once everyone is set on rep we can just roll need on the coins like everything else, I hope to make a
lot of people wealthy with these runs.
Epics and decent blues: A "GKP" concept has been brought to my attention. An epic drops and we'll either give the item a gold value equal to its
DKP value or adjust the value accordingly if DKP is outrageously high in gold standards. I would have to look at the dkp system closer to determine
that. So basically what happens if the Bloodlords Defender drops and a warrior says he'll buy it with GKP he is essentially buying the item from the
raid for a set value. at the end of the raid the earned gold will be divided amongst all raiders (except the ones who bought something, they will not
receive their own gold back from the item they bought).
This concept sounds expensive at first but if you really think about it you're going to walk away with tons of money and you will be able to afford
this easily. You'll all be making tons of money off of greys greens blues and eventually coins. You'll also be making money off of the GKP system so
if you can't afford an item one day you will certainly be able to the next time it drops. I've made a loose calculation that on average the raiders
will walk away with 15-20g profit if nothing was purchased. without seeing the DKP charts and confirming an appropriate gold value on specific items
the calculation is a loose estimate but I'm told by my leadership team that it could potentially be more gold profit than my initial estimation. I
would rather get your interest with promises of less gold and surprise you with more later than rip you off and you get pissed at me lol.
The random appearance of the raiding day is just that, random. If its typically a bad day for you to raid on then don't sign up. Even if you can make
it that day due to some reason don't sign up for the roster just ask for an invite when the invites are up. The reason I say this is because I want
to pin point the most favored day to raid, and if you sign up for a day thats usually bad for you then its going to throw the poll off and the raids
could very well end up on a day thats bad for you.
I will be running this professionally with CT and RA, I've asked a few vetrans to attend such as Birudojin who has agreed, a few others who may or
may not attend depending on their schedule. Their purpose will not be to assist us in downing bosses though they will be a great help I'm sure, their
purpose is to critique the raid leadership and help us get to where we need to be to make your raid more functional and enjoyable without turning in
to NAZI's!
If the loot system doesn't catch on I will speak with guild leadership about gaining DKP access somehow. We'll take a poll after we've done out
thing a few times.
Please ask any questions I'll be checking the forums regularly.
~ Taurek
PS  
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Taurek
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| posted on 12-4-0606 at 01:50 PM |
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[December-04 15:46] jamesreedibm: According to Robear, if the Epic Item is set at 30 gold, and two or more want it, it goes into an auction
[December-04 15:46] jamesreedibm: 30 minimum
[December-04 15:46] WoWTaurek: I see...
[December-04 15:46] jamesreedibm: and they keep paying more and more
[December-04 15:46] jamesreedibm: so if you are going affter only one item... question is, how bad do you want it?
[December-04 15:47] WoWTaurek: Right
[December-04 15:47] jamesreedibm: but on a normal run.... let's say each boss is about 40 gold value each ok
[December-04 15:47] jamesreedibm: which is VERY LOW
[December-04 15:47] WoWTaurek: Right
[December-04 15:47] WoWTaurek: Also consider you'll make about 10g from trash
[December-04 15:48] jamesreedibm: if we get to hakkar, each item is epic and should be from 120-180 gold
[December-04 15:48] jamesreedibm: Bloodlord could easily be 60-80 as well
[December-04 15:48] jamesreedibm: now, consider it's a 20 man 
[December-04 15:48] jamesreedibm: 5 priests at 40 each = 200
[December-04 15:48] jamesreedibm: hakkar at 160
[December-04 15:48] jamesreedibm: bloodlord at 60
[December-04 15:48] jamesreedibm: =420
[December-04 15:48] WoWTaurek: shit...
[December-04 15:48] jamesreedibm: /20
[December-04 15:49] WoWTaurek: 21g
[December-04 15:49] jamesreedibm: there ya go
[December-04 15:49] WoWTaurek: Hey I was spot on
[December-04 15:49] WoWTaurek: Good show chap
[December-04 15:49] WoWTaurek: But... actually...
[December-04 15:49] WoWTaurek: Thats probably going to be like 30g profit after trash greens and blues with the greys on top and not to mention that
actual coin money that drops.
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Taurek
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| posted on 12-4-0606 at 01:58 PM |
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So as you can see if you are poor and can't afford epics at first you eventually will be able to. Also keep in mind we may alter the value of items
if people are unable to purchase them at first. We may all start off broke and have to work out GKP system up in to something decent over time. But if
someone wants the item and can't afford it we WILL work them on it. I'm not certain how we'll work with them just yet but we are discussing
this.
Tonight will be our first run, I hope to see plenty of faces! I have a few healers already lined up in advance since we're typically low on healers.
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Taurek
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| posted on 12-4-0606 at 02:51 PM |
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Ok revision time
coins
trash epics
gold value DKP/GKP
Gear out members attending even after they have everything
A number of issues came up that I'd like to address. What if items drop like famous vendorstrike (thunderstrike shadowstrike)?
The trash item can either be rolled for or we can do an auction system where the ammount reduces each time until someone buys it, or my favorite idea
we take the trash epic and vendor or D/E it depending on its disenchant/vendor value. We can then either GKP the enchanting material or auction house
it, then take either the vendor profit or auction house profit and split it evenly amongst the raiders.
Coins Revised!
Ok so a good idea came up, instead of favoring the person with highest rep we should favor the person with closest rep to attaining their rep item. I
really like this idea and it could work, so far the leadership team seems to be leaning more towards this notion.
There was an issue with DKP to Gold Value transition. So as seen above in the IM session all blues could be minimum 10g bo and epics 30g bo from the
raid. The problem I had from this is items like the vendorstrike being completly over priced but what if someone wanted to actually use it. He
wouldn't want to buy it for 30g cuz its crap! So we've considered a DKP to gold ratio concept. ( just an example not real numbers! 1 dkp would have
a .60g value). This should alleviate some inconsistancies. Also if with this new system an item is too expensive for someone to afford but he really
wants it and he's the only person who wants it we've considered how we can work around this. We don't have any ideas yet, but some of the ideas are
a debt system similar to taking negative DKP but something you have to pay back when you're able, or reducing the cost by a reasonable amount.
Obviously we want people to buy items out, its more profitable for us and in most cases its still more profitable even if you halve the value of the
item rather than D/Eing the item and bidding for it. My concern with this is whats to stop someone from saying they don't have enough when they
really do? I more favor the debt system personally but its a work in progress.
Lastly, the main reason we can't keep a raid going is because the uber people don't need anything from an instance so why go? Well with this new
raider concept gold profit will be enough to persuade geared out people to attend, the thought of potentially bringing in anywhere from 30-50g from a
raid is very nice and even BWL epic'd people might consider attending. And I would like to point out even if you are buying items you will still be
making a profit, if I bought blood lords defender for lets say 30g, the estimated bare minimum profit from a raid is 30g so I would certainly break
even and I would have my epic. Now this is assuming there was no auction for a contested epic that more than one person wanted. There is a chance of
walking out with negative gold, but the idea is that long term it is a profitable system, you may walk away today losing 10-20g, but if you have your
items now then tomorrow you can walk away with a 30-50g profit.... far out weighing the negative as you can see. The goal here is for no one to walk
away from this raid losing more than they gained, I hope to make everyone wealthy and well geared for the expansion.
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Jitterz
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| posted on 12-4-0606 at 03:58 PM |
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http://noobs.warfareinc.com/wow/eqdkp/listmembers.php heres
the dkp site for wfi
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HappiGrrl
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| posted on 12-4-0606 at 05:00 PM |
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Question professor,
How will gold be distributed amongst ppl that are subbing in and out?
Is it after each boss (or some notation of who attended and split amongst those ppl?)
Otherwise would seem kinda poo for say Me (a notoriously greedy Californian) to come in for 1 boss and get the same split as someone else that was
there for the whole run. 
p.p.s. ~ Biru just hit crunch time so his raiding days have just been stripped to bare. 
If it's coming outta my butt, it's gotta be cute ^^
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Nielford
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| posted on 12-4-0606 at 06:23 PM |
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Looks interesting. I'm curious to see how your runs turn out. Just a few observations I have is that I think you're over estimating the boss
values unless you count the quest items as epic. The priests dont all drop epics. Also dont forget repair costs. Typically a run will cost me about
5-10g. More if it was relatively ugly. Just something to consider. Please post how the first raid turned out.
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chevyII
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| posted on 12-4-0606 at 07:02 PM |
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DAMN GREEDY CALIFORNIANS!!!
hmmm am I starting to miss my wow family??
nahhh not yet!
HI ex guildies!
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Uther
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| posted on 12-5-0606 at 07:58 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Nielford
Looks interesting. I'm curious to see how your runs turn out. Just a few observations I have is that I think you're over estimating the boss
values unless you count the quest items as epic. The priests dont all drop epics. Also dont forget repair costs. Typically a run will cost me about
5-10g. More if it was relatively ugly. Just something to consider. Please post how the first raid turned out. |
Well last night we attempted a DKG or GKP or whatever run with the PEWS... They started Epics at 10 gold each with 10 gold increment bidding. All
blues were 5 gold minimum, increasing by 5 each time.
We successfully took down Spider, Bat, Snake and the Bloodlord. Each member in the raid walked away with 25 gold, vendor trash, and any random
greens/coins/bijous they won as well. Considering I spent about 5 gold on repairs, this was a very solid return on a raid where I was helping out more
than anything.
In response to Sarah's question regarding the time and divvying up of the gold, They basically set a 3-4 hour commitment time. If you leave before
that time, you do not receive your gold. I like this as it encourages people to stick out even the worst case senarios and dedicate a solid amount of
time to the raid. If someone does leave, the "Bank" of the raid would keep track who subbed in and at what time.
Example:
2 bosses down and there is 120 gold in the "Bank" but the commitment time has not been reached and someone must leave. Sub A enters and we down 2
more bosses for another 120 gold.
This leaves 240 gold in the Bank, but Sub A only recieves 120/20 of that gold while the rest of the raid recieves (120/19) + (120/20).
Jason and I are quite interested in leading this adventure and look forward to how it will turn out.
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Nielford
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| posted on 12-5-0606 at 09:43 AM |
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Which epics were sold and how much did they sell for? How long did the run last night take? Curious what your gold/hour ended up being.
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Uther
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| posted on 12-5-0606 at 09:56 AM |
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It was about a 3 hour run, but that is also due to a guild's working progression in the game.
The big sellers were the Idol from the Bloodlord at around 70 gold, Runed Bloodstained Hauberk for 100, Jeklik's Opaline Talisman for over 60 I
think, and the Flowing Ritual Robes for 120-130.
On average, I would say gold/hour was 10+ at least and once the guild is more confortable with the instance, that should climb a bit.
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Birdman
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| posted on 12-5-0606 at 10:13 AM |
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Yeah, I'll make runs if I can.. as long as I get home from work at a decent hour (8:30 or so) I can make the runs if they're later, or else come in
as a sub if it's already started.
Biru
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blueshadow
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| posted on 12-5-0606 at 12:12 PM |
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well, i guess i can take down the dkp site. sorry for those of you that have been attending raids and saving dkp, here's a big screw you. gratz to
those of you that are in the negative, made out like bandits.
-nj
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Krapurpants
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| posted on 12-5-0606 at 12:38 PM |
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err wait a minute..i'm positive dkp...
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Stang
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| posted on 12-5-0606 at 01:32 PM |
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I feel for ya NJ some of that stuff isn't just a push button setup. It's unfortunate, but with the xpack coming soon it seems like there are more
and more PUG ZG, AQ and MC. With people getting tied to all kinds of instances it would probably be hard to get a full WFi one going. Looks like
alot of the hardcore raiders from larger guilds don't wanna do them anymore so they are making pug ones like the Violent Sin one.
The only real incentive I can see to this is basically bribing geared out people to go to instances to help out with gold instead of getting DKP they
will probably never use there 
This being a guild of mostly friends I would think that wouldn't be necessary
Either way I go to everything haha
"If you can't dazzle someone with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit" |
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botoxx
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| posted on 12-5-0606 at 04:38 PM |
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So what happens to all the dkp points that were saved previously? Are the people with +ve dkp screwed? I'm near negative dkp, but I'm just curious
is all.
I'm intrigued by the GKP system, but if an epic drops and two people want it, the person with the most gold will inevitably win out. Doesn't seem
fair. That means guildies with tons of gold (ie. Malaas with about 10K.
) will always win, and poor folks llike me lose out.
Also, the GKP system doesn't seem to reward those who raid consistently as far as epics. If someone raids consistently and an epic he/she wants
happens to drop, they could lose to someone else who just joined the raid out of the blue, but has more gold to spend.
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Uther
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| posted on 12-5-0606 at 07:19 PM |
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Guys, let it be known this was just a different idea to possibly spark more 20 man involvement before the expansion. Taurek and I are simply looking
for something new to encourage people to enjoy one or two 20-man raids throughout the week...
This system has it's disadvantages just as DKP does, which I am aware of. And for those of you that have tons of DKP saved for one or two specific
items, yes this is an issue we need to address.
As it is though, WFI was not running anything at all for the most part on it's own here lately, but that is a non-issue...
This system is not without its drawbacks and we are looking for any input that you guys have to offer.
Thanks
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Akaraja
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| posted on 12-5-0606 at 07:36 PM |
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I don't see the harm in trying something new. If it works out great, if it fails we can just go back to the old dkp system.
If it does work out in the long run maybe some sort of system could be set up to pay off the dkp people previously had with gold collected from the
new raids. Just a suggestion, don't kill me if you don't like the idea. >_>
Marzen - 60 Priest
Akaraja - 60 Shaman
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Taurek
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| posted on 12-6-0606 at 04:24 PM |
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Ok about the DKP being lost. Its not gone, and I'm not attempting to take it away. I'm not an officer nor do I want to be one, and I don't want
access to altering DKP on the site because it seems like a headache/hassle. The DKP is still worth something if the guild leadership ever decides to
make the guild more active again. My raids are a completly independent raid like Kalkids raids, same concept different style of looting.
All this is about is wanting to raid and not getting to because the guild is stagnant.
Not to mention with the expansion coming out your DKP is going to be jacked anyway, what need is there for DKP in a world of 5 mans? Soon there will
be no point in MC, BWL, Naxx other than getting to see the instance. The gear will be gimped by greens and blues from Outlands. So if you want to
cling to your DKP that badly you're just going to get a rude awakening in the expansion. In my humble opinion if you have positive DKP spend spend
spend, next time you instance just buy out everything and vendor trash the epic BOPs cuz there won't be any point in it.
As for the the rich prospering and the poor getting left behind.... I don't completly understand how you can get that idea if someone comes and buys
things out you are getting rich at their expense. You'll be the one with tons of gold after two or three runs. I made 25g in crap cash AFTER repairs,
didn't sell the greys and didn't sell the bijous and coins I had. Do the math. Its just like DKP, you won't get phat lewtz the first time you go if
you have no money, but if you keep going you will eventually be able to buy anything you want, epics, epic mount, crack cocain, a hooker....
And James covered how we would have handled someone coming in late. Just note what bosses they attended and pay them off accordingly.
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Taurek
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| posted on 12-6-0606 at 04:26 PM |
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blueshadow
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| posted on 12-6-0606 at 05:52 PM |
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i wasn't really going to say more, but when someone counters my points w/ bs, i just can't help it. you say that you're not trying to take dkp
away (effectively), but... YES YOU ARE - you set up guild runs w/o dkp, YOU ARE TAKING DKP AWAY FROM THOSE THAT HAVE IT. you ARE saying screw the
people that have dkp saved up - the people that helped get you geared enough to be able to clear these instances, by setting this up as a way to run
guild raids, you ARE saying you want to take leadership. that's just bs to say otherwise.
james mentions the idea of finding a way to give people that do have dkp some way of using it in this system, sounds like an open minded idea (whether
it happens or not, at least he's acknowledging it).
and please do not compare this with kalkids raids. his guild is incapable of running a 20man run at all.
and by trying to sell this to the guild as a whole, you are screwing the guild's ability to run dkp runs (if they so choose) because people will be
saved on these instances.
this said, i'm not saying what you're doing is a bad thing. you're right, the guild has not been running 20 mans, and you're right, dkp will be
useless with BC (as this raiding system will be). and i actually think it's a good idea, hopefully this will get all the people that mooched items
and are negative dkp's to start getting back into it (myself included), which is the main point.
and you are wrong about "the math" if someone is rich, has x amount of gold, they can take everything for quite a while. each person not taking
will only receive 1/19th of what they atually spend, it will take a bit more then 2 or 3 runs to get that same amount of gold that the "rich" person
orginally had, (whatever you consider to be rich). THAT's the math.
like i said, it's good that you're doing something to try to get more participation in 20man runs, but i think you'll get better responses, if you
just tell it how it is and either say, too bad, or we'll try to do something about it, then bs'ing about the negative parts. just say it how it is!
-nj
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Taurek
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| posted on 12-7-0606 at 10:26 AM |
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Ok well you made a lot of assumptions there that end up being wrong.
Its not a guild only raid there will be outsiders there so like I said I'm not trying to take leadership in the guild and I don't want it. This is
only about hanging out with friends. It has nothing to do with DKP because it has nothing to do with WFI it just so happens that most of my friends
are in WFI. What about Birudojin implies that this is a guild run? Did you miss that part or do you just not really pay attention when people talk?
Secondly I am not a guild officer I've said it three times I guess its not enough so I'm saying it a fourth, I can't change DKP on the website so
if I want to raid with friends this is THE BEST I CAN OFFER! I'm sorry me wanting to hang out with your hard headed ass is pissing you off but it has
nothing to do with your damn DKP. If you want to keep DKP so bad become an officer and schedule raids, until you do that I'm going to improvise any
way I can. You're basically jumping my ass because I want to hang out and have fun in a game I pay $15 a month for and I don't want to sit around
and wait for a damn officer to hold my hand and take me out on a raid. I have balls I'm going to use them I want to raid so I'm going to, anyone
else who wants to lets go! So get over your DKP.
Now don't tell me what I say is BS when you clearly don't even fully understand the concept of just wanting to hang out in a game. Thats all any of
this is about why can't you understand it? If you don't like the idea then don't come because I don't care about your DKP woes. And I will compare
it to Kalkids raids because currently WFI is completly incapable of running a 20 man raid obviously, I've made an honest attempt at it and I get
smart ass responses about how I'm full of bullshit. if you wanna discuss things with me then the least you can do is not insult me for just putting
forth an honest effort here!
And the math is fine! How many times do I have to explain it to you! people were spending up to 120g for one item, I walked away with a grand total
after AH profits of 62g. I don't care if you have 10k gold if you keep spending like that you're going to make a lot of rich people, now why don't
you sit down with a calculator and tell me if on average someone spends even 80g on a moderate item (ONE ITEM) how long can he keep that up with about
10+ moderate item drops per run. My math says he even with 10k gold he can't do that very long genius so maybe you need to relearn the concept of
numbers a little.
Now granted you only see numbers climb that high on an auction, but if you're buying things out constantly then after two raids people are going to
be able to compete with others just enough to force them to pay outrageous ammounts of gold. If you want to go in and buy everything out be my guest I
don't mind at all, and there's items in ZG and AQ20 that I actually want. But if you want to make me rich and essentially buy my new flying mount
for me then I'm not going to bitch nearly half as much as you have already. huh... epics thats going to be trash after one week of BC.... or a flying
mount. Gee sherlock I just don't know on that one.
Now next time try not attacking someone who's making an honest effort and keep your damn insults to yourself.
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Taurek
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| posted on 12-7-0606 at 10:32 AM |
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I do however recognize that these run may conflict with guild interests. If guild leaderships wants to start 20mans up again then I can compromise
with that. I notice that most of the recent 20 mans we've don though few and far between have been AQ20. So as a compromise would it be enough to
only run ZG with this system on the side? Looking for guild officer response on this please.
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HappiGrrl
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| posted on 12-7-0606 at 10:39 AM |
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Jason, I think it's fine. Go for it buddy! If nothing else it gives ppl another option to run 20mans and finish off their rep / items.
Also for ppl that need Cenarion rep, I've heard they just bumped text turnins to 250 rep now.
If it's coming outta my butt, it's gotta be cute ^^
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Stang
I Own Chebbie
Posts: 1246
Registered: 5-12-0202
Location: Livonia, Michigan
Member Is Offline
Mood: (o^.^)--Do(X_xo)
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| posted on 12-7-0606 at 10:44 AM |
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I'm kinda surprised people spend that much gold on ZG items, but hell might be a good way to farm gold before xpack
Basically like running undergeared people through an instance for gold lol.
"If you can't dazzle someone with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit"
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